posted by
mmoa_writes at 01:58pm on 26/07/2007
I do of course intend to write proper essays on each of these topics, but for now, I shall merely rabble, and get it out of my system.
This is - as the subject title suggests - mainly because of my love for Dumbledore, Snape and any version, even platonic, of Snapledore, that I actually think the two became... as close to friends as either is capable of being.
The first thing that struck me about their relationship as it developed was purely anecdotal, but
lilith_morgana summed it up completely. It was like Scenes from a Marriage.
People clearly didn't appreciate this side to their dealings with one another as much as we did. It seemed merely to highlight that Dumbledore was a cold-hearted manipulative bastard. This was mainly from Snape fans and Dumbledore foes, however, so that was perhaps unsurprising. A little close-minded, perhaps, but golly, if there's one thing DH has revealed amongst certain fan factions, it's how easily we will swallow the pill and simplify what is clearly complex.
Yes, Dumbledore is manipulative. But no more so of Snape than of anyone else, to be honest (which is why I like him, but then, Havelock Vetinari/Anafiel Delauney-esque characters have always been a pet fave of mine). When you compare the way he treats Snape to les otres, he's a damn sight more honest with him than with, say, Potter or Black of even McGonagall (the little we see of his interactions with her).
In short, what I think we saw was not so much an uber-manipulative Dumbledore, but the interaction of two very different characters. Snape is all about the rage and spluttering and ranting, whilst Dumbledore is all about self-control and is just by nature a generally calm individual.
*
Now, I will actually, really write a proper essay on the following topic, so this will be very sketchy. About Wizards and religion.
It is difficult to imagine wizardkind having anything like the same relationship with their deities as we in RL do. After all, wizards display many of the same powers attributed to various deities, including foreknowledge, the ability to heal themselves having suffered grievous damage and even to prolong their lives indefintely (Philosopher's stone, which yes, has been destroyed, but was, remember, created by a wizard - clearly the magic to do so is still there).
In fact, I would expect something more akin to Terry Pratchett's Witches or Chrestomanci in Diana Wynne Jones - you know the gods exist (so belief is irrelevant), you have dealings with them as you would someone who is your superior by one level or so but not as supreme founts of knowledge (thus, no worshipping). In general, you would be on equal terms with them. Certainly, it does not take a massive leap to see that the Dumbledore's of this theistically inclined wizarding world would even be more powerful than the lesser deities.
So the closest thing wizards would ever 'worship', it seems, would be Fate. According to most mythologies, even the gods are held in sway by their Fate. Fate is the ultimate, the most untouchable of all the Powers. This, it seems, would be the only Force wizards would respond to with real awe and fear. We have already seen that Prophecies are very real things in the wizarding world, though their power - as ever, relies on human interpretation (not so different from our RL mythologies).
I'd be expecting, in short, oracles and seers as the equivalent of temples and priests. As Fate would not be a deity in the true sense of the word, there would be very little in the way of rites for the worshippers, (maybe for a few sects here and there who have decided to personalise this Power as humans so often tend to do). There would be wizards who dedicate their whole lives, much like the centaurs, to the interpretation of prophecies and others to protecting or destroying them, and others to watching over those who are suspected to be the subject of a prophecy and so on and so forth.
*
Speaking of Fate...
It seems that the wizarding world is one bound by a continuous cyle of Dark Lords and White Hats. As Fate is to do with the aspects of one's life that one cannot control (in myth, we see that one's is typically Fate is a result of a choice your ancestor made, for example, and hence unalterable) and one's past is definitely out of bounds, it seems likely that there will be another Dark Lord and another Harry Potter.
[A/N: This brings about a question concerning the Prophecy. Did Harry/Neville's parents hear it before they were expecting their sons? Was there even a prophecy concerning the rise of the Dark Lord himself?]
Wizards aren't generally encouraged to treat History with any respect, as far as we can see from their education, so perhaps this is not so surprising.
*
Possibly my shortest rabble ever:
Life debts... how much is in the mind, and how much of matter? That is the question.
It's funny, all this time on my hands and I have inked in practically none of the comics I've already sketched out. The good news is, our computer now has an internet connection, so I can use the scanner to put up a couple of drawings I owe.
Bleargh, I need a job.
This is - as the subject title suggests - mainly because of my love for Dumbledore, Snape and any version, even platonic, of Snapledore, that I actually think the two became... as close to friends as either is capable of being.
The first thing that struck me about their relationship as it developed was purely anecdotal, but
People clearly didn't appreciate this side to their dealings with one another as much as we did. It seemed merely to highlight that Dumbledore was a cold-hearted manipulative bastard. This was mainly from Snape fans and Dumbledore foes, however, so that was perhaps unsurprising. A little close-minded, perhaps, but golly, if there's one thing DH has revealed amongst certain fan factions, it's how easily we will swallow the pill and simplify what is clearly complex.
Yes, Dumbledore is manipulative. But no more so of Snape than of anyone else, to be honest (which is why I like him, but then, Havelock Vetinari/Anafiel Delauney-esque characters have always been a pet fave of mine). When you compare the way he treats Snape to les otres, he's a damn sight more honest with him than with, say, Potter or Black of even McGonagall (the little we see of his interactions with her).
In short, what I think we saw was not so much an uber-manipulative Dumbledore, but the interaction of two very different characters. Snape is all about the rage and spluttering and ranting, whilst Dumbledore is all about self-control and is just by nature a generally calm individual.
*
Now, I will actually, really write a proper essay on the following topic, so this will be very sketchy. About Wizards and religion.
It is difficult to imagine wizardkind having anything like the same relationship with their deities as we in RL do. After all, wizards display many of the same powers attributed to various deities, including foreknowledge, the ability to heal themselves having suffered grievous damage and even to prolong their lives indefintely (Philosopher's stone, which yes, has been destroyed, but was, remember, created by a wizard - clearly the magic to do so is still there).
In fact, I would expect something more akin to Terry Pratchett's Witches or Chrestomanci in Diana Wynne Jones - you know the gods exist (so belief is irrelevant), you have dealings with them as you would someone who is your superior by one level or so but not as supreme founts of knowledge (thus, no worshipping). In general, you would be on equal terms with them. Certainly, it does not take a massive leap to see that the Dumbledore's of this theistically inclined wizarding world would even be more powerful than the lesser deities.
So the closest thing wizards would ever 'worship', it seems, would be Fate. According to most mythologies, even the gods are held in sway by their Fate. Fate is the ultimate, the most untouchable of all the Powers. This, it seems, would be the only Force wizards would respond to with real awe and fear. We have already seen that Prophecies are very real things in the wizarding world, though their power - as ever, relies on human interpretation (not so different from our RL mythologies).
I'd be expecting, in short, oracles and seers as the equivalent of temples and priests. As Fate would not be a deity in the true sense of the word, there would be very little in the way of rites for the worshippers, (maybe for a few sects here and there who have decided to personalise this Power as humans so often tend to do). There would be wizards who dedicate their whole lives, much like the centaurs, to the interpretation of prophecies and others to protecting or destroying them, and others to watching over those who are suspected to be the subject of a prophecy and so on and so forth.
*
Speaking of Fate...
It seems that the wizarding world is one bound by a continuous cyle of Dark Lords and White Hats. As Fate is to do with the aspects of one's life that one cannot control (in myth, we see that one's is typically Fate is a result of a choice your ancestor made, for example, and hence unalterable) and one's past is definitely out of bounds, it seems likely that there will be another Dark Lord and another Harry Potter.
[A/N: This brings about a question concerning the Prophecy. Did Harry/Neville's parents hear it before they were expecting their sons? Was there even a prophecy concerning the rise of the Dark Lord himself?]
Wizards aren't generally encouraged to treat History with any respect, as far as we can see from their education, so perhaps this is not so surprising.
*
Possibly my shortest rabble ever:
Life debts... how much is in the mind, and how much of matter? That is the question.
It's funny, all this time on my hands and I have inked in practically none of the comics I've already sketched out. The good news is, our computer now has an internet connection, so I can use the scanner to put up a couple of drawings I owe.
Bleargh, I need a job.
(no subject)
Save "You have used me", I think "DON'T CALL ME COWARD" is the best S/A line in canon. Poor, brave Severus who broke his soul on his
boyfriend'sMentor's order.Scenes from a Dysfunctional Marriage, perhaps. :)
(no subject)
(no subject)
Bang on. This is definitely what makes me love them, whether gen or slash, main characters or side interaction.
But you point to another reason for that complexity that attracts him: Snape's relationship with Dumbledore. Sometimes "old married couple," sometimes squabbly Childish!Snape and PatientParent!Albus -- but in HBP and The Prince's Tale, Snape is the care-giver to Albus. I always laugh and roll my eyes as Prim-and-Proper!Snape and Prankster!Albus. And even though Albus is the Master Manipulator, they seem to even sometimes switch off which one is all fairness & justice minded and which the devious expedient sneak.
So many sides to this rich relationship *loves*
Also: Fate as the W-World's main deity - good point! At first I thought OK, clearly yes - but then why the hate for Trelawney? But maybe that's from frustration, or even a sort of apotropaic trying to despise her, because the power she has is so fearful; the only thing they can't defeat. Mmm... thinky! My ultimate kink, so thanks!
And this again:
Snape is all about the rage and spluttering and ranting, whilst Dumbledore is all about self-control and is just by nature a generally calm individual.
You surely know how *visual* this is? In fact, your whole post is "sketchy" - but not in the thinking, which is really well worked-out, but in its visuality, which is really very amusing given your final comments. Please go keep drawing!!!
(no subject)
This is probably the most fascinating aspect for me: it is the ultimate duplicity, almost, how the former DE exhibits the care and sense of justice that one would expect from the good Headmaster, who in turn reveals himself as manipulative and cruel (in a 'cruel to be kind' sort of way, don't get me wrong) as one would think is more suitable behaviour from the fearsome Potions Master. It's brilliant!
And your point about Trelawney raises some more interesting possibilities that I never considered, actually. The hatred of Trelawney doesn't particularly surprise me if we take the Fate=wizarding deity line after all, priests have never been popular in our history (remember the Aesop's fable about the idol filled with gold coins, lol) and in this sense, McGonagall's remarks about Divination in PoA reminds me a great deal of Jocasta in Oedipus the King, who believes in the gods, sure, but thinks that their priests and seers can be a little dodgy nonetheless. The dislike of seers can thus be seen as ordinary people getting angered that they are at the mercy of their interpretations, rather than hearing of their Fate for themselves.
Somehow I doubt that's what JKR is getting at, (wizards having their own religion et al.) but it's an interesting line of inquiry anyway!
(no subject)
(no subject)
I suppose we can explain the Christmas thing by the fact that our society here in England has been based on Christian values for such a long time that it's impossible to separate our culture from them.
I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this.
(no subject)